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Welcome to Jay in VA

This is my spot in the blogworld to rant and rave and ramble - three things I do extremely well - and to just talk about my life in general. My blog has opened up a whole new world to me, and I hope you enjoy reading and commenting! Please feel free to do both. I appreciate your feedback.

Wednesday, January 30, 2013

I Had To Chime In

Since the HUGE announcement that the Boy Scouts of America is considering relaxing its ban on gay leaders  and scouts, and since I have was a leader in that organization who has since left it, and then come out, I thought I'd put in my two cents worth. This won't be a long post, just a to-the-point one, from my perspective.

If you've been living under a rock (read: never read any gay news sites), then you might not realize that the 100+ year old homophobic organization known as the Boy Scouts of America has decided to put before its Board of Directors (a bunch of very old, very white, very conservative - nay, far, far right wing conservative - men) a proposal to remove the ban AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL against LGBT leaders and scouts as members. As you can probably tell, there is some scorn in my voice. Here's why:

Yes, this is a HUGE step towards equality for, in my opinion, LGBT youth more than adults. While all should be considered equal, I was a gay scout leader for 30-odd years while deeply closeted, so it is possible. The youth, not so much - they simply feel DIFFERENT, left out, not always a part of the group at a time when acceptance and peers and being part of the gang is so important in their development. But the BSA has left a HUGE HOLE in this new policy. It is going to allow the individual chartered organizations to decide whether or not to admit gay youth and leaders.

A "chartered organization" is pretty much any group willing to be the "umbrella" organization for a scout troop, cub scout pack, Explorer post, or Venture crew. Every sort of group is - community associations, Elks Lodges, other fraternal and civic organizations, school PTAs, fire stations, police departments, even groups formed especially to be a chartered organization for a unit. But the VAST MAJORITY of the charters are held by churches. Remember now, in this possible policy shift (it hasn't been voted on yet), atheists are still excluded. You must profess a belief in a Supreme Being of some sort to be a member. But that's OK, and an argument for the Madalyn Murray O'Hairs to fight. Of the churches, I'd bet money that over 70% of the charters (making up probably 50% of the total charters in the BSA) are held by Catholic Churches, Baptist Churches, United Methodist Churches, and surprise, surprise, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - the Mormons. Anyone want to take a stab at how many of those chartered orgs will open their units to LGBTQ youth and/or adults? My guess: zilch, zero, nada, nil, aught, and naught...not a fucking one.
Top 10 Chartered Organizations associated with the Boy Scouts of America, by Total Youth
Name of OrganizationTotal UnitsTotal Youth
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints37882420977
United Methodist Church11078371491
Catholic Church8570283642
Parent-teacher groups other than PTAs3712153214
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)3663127931
Lutheranism3902119701
Groups of Citizens3445106852
Baptists4099109298
Private schools2837101563
Parent-Teacher Association/Parent Teacher Organization166169812
from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America

The BSA is clearly considering this for two reasons. One, donations are drying up. Corporations are being pressured to stop giving to the BSA and its discriminatory policies, and the bad publicity associated with their good corporate names is not something bigwig CEOs want to see on the the front page of the newspaper, on every news channel, and splashed across every news website. They are tired of their phones ringing off the hook on both sides of the argument, and their email inboxes filling up daily with hate mail. So they acquiesce, and find other charities who do not discriminate to give their money to. And it's not like they quit giving to charities; they just turn it to positive news by stopping the money to the BSA. An easy peasy way to turn bad news into good. 

Then two, the BSA is dreadfully tired of the bad publicity being heaped on it. This affects even small donors and quite possibly as important, membership numbers which are more or less level or down a bit over the past few years, but down by nearly 40% since the 70's and 80's.
"For the year ending December 31, 2011, BSA has lost over  589,057 registered Cub Scouts since 1998. Total membership in BSA's traditional programs has declined by approximately 25% (900,169 members), since 1997!"
(from http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html, but I am seen these numbers elsewhere, I just can't find them again!)
They are finally figuring out that if they discriminate, the news media, liberal or not, is going to grab hold and twist it until it hurts. And it does hurt. Between the release of the "perversion files" (my name is undoubtedly in them) which has resulted in news articles across the country, the exclusion of a lesbian mother as a den leader for her 6 year old Cub Scout son, and what I think was the last straw, a council denying Eagle Scout to a young man who earned it, when he came out as gay at 17 years old. Then the council tried to smear him, and of course, it backfired and made them look like crap in the news. The national news. (Truth be known, I'd have counselled this youth to stay closeted until he had his national approval. But perhaps, since he finished his work before he was 18, he can get it if national does approve this change.)

I kind of see this move as a corporation saying "we won't discriminate anymore, but you individual departments (or franchisees, which is arguably a closer analogy) can do whatever you please." So there will be little change in many places, but at least chartered organizations that want to be inclusive can, and new groups can become chartered organizations and allow all youth and adults to join! So perhaps one step forward at least. 

21 comments:

  1. I dont see this as much of a step forward actually. The vast majority of the dens will still discriminate against GLBT. All this will do is unhook the National BSA from the dens, making it nearly impossible to sue the BSA for any dens policies. I see this as an end run, rather than a sea change of having an open and discrimination free organization.

    To me it totally smacks of "hate the sin, love the sinner" view of most churches in their stance against same sex copulation. Then again, whose hand is on the rudder of the BSA, thats right, the Mormons and the Catholics.

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    1. Well, that's pretty much the tone of the post, I think. At least that's what I had in mind. I have commented on several news sites and blogs about this, and the tone seems to be that it is a step forward, perhaps a wee step forward, but the door is opening. I am sure that if they made it a truly "open and discrimination free organization" all those churches would ditch their charters and there would be less people hit up for "Friends of Scouting", one of the local councils' major fundraising campaigns where they hit up every scout family for upwards of $150 per kid to help "cover the expenses of scouting", which means "pay the salary of employees at the council". They can't afford that. My hope is that groups will form or come out of the woodwork to sponsor open and accepting troops and dens.

      I hear what you're saying. Thanks for the chance to explain further.

      Jay

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  2. oh heavens, is anyone in the BSA anymore?

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    1. A couple of million, believe it or not. I support the individual units, just not anything above that. The troops are doing great stuff, just ask the dozens of former scouts I keep in touch with daily (and of that bunch, many know I'm gay).
      Jay

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  3. Great analysis, and I believe it's true. Any change at the national level is for show purposes only and nothing will really change at the local level. Will long-time supporters come back into the fold? I'm guessing not. I'm hoping not to be honest. At least not until the local level changes too.

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    1. Yeah, I doubt any of the defectors will come back. It's a pain to change all your charitable giving every few days. I'm sure they will just shrug and the BSA will have to go beg others since "we don't discriminate now".
      Jay

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  4. I was in BSA for a while, but never an Eagle.

    I recently read that when you begin to work towards Eagle, you have to make some declaration of your religious faith?

    That seems really whacked.

    OTOH, the Girls Scouts seem far less discriminatory.

    :-)

    -Andy

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    1. Technically, you are supposed to be doing that from the git-go since the Scout Law states that a scout is reverent. There's no other "formal" declaration, but you can be sure that you'll get asked about your faith in God at your Board of Review for Eagle.
      Jay

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  5. Hello Jay
    I completely understand why you're so unconvinced about this, about whether any real change will be forthcoming. It's very likely to be a cynical window-dressing exercise, but, sometimes, these things take on a life of their own, and have consequences unintended by their initiators. I hope that the unintended consequence in this case is a little more inclusivity for a group of young people who, as you say, are very often ostracised.

    Love & best wishes
    Sammy B

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    1. I will withhold final judgement, but I just can't see any of the conservative and clearly anti-gay churches allowing any change in their units, though it does open the door for new organizations (maybe a PFLAG chapter) to sponsor units, so that is promising.
      Jay

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  6. Hi Jay;
    When I read that article about the lessening restrictions, I thought about you and wondered your response.
    Although I know the LDS church is quite conservative, many of the Lutheran and UMC are much more liberal. So, perhaps real change can happen.
    Even still, much like the stance the republicans recently took regarding immigration because "we are losing elections" - it concerns me more that people will change their convictions not for the sake of understanding they were wrong and rethinking their position, but because their conviction is not popular. That tells me the conviction was more a tactic than a belief.

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    1. I think you're correct about the politics...as to the churches, yes, I know that some will change and allow everyone equal access, but many more will not. I just read this morning that something like 65% of charters are held by churches, with the largest percentage of that by Mormon, Catholic and Baptists. As long as others are willing to charter and STAY WITH new units in areas where change won't take place in existing organizations, then I'm all for this. But personal experience has shown me that the BSA is notorious about starting new units to "serve more boys" in areas that are pretty much saturated with troops (meaning, if a boy wanted to join, it's not like he'd have to travel much farther than he would to go to school to find a troop), then pretty much abandon them to sink or swim on their own, except when they show up to try to hit them up for "Friends of Scouting" money (FoS is a yearly plea for giving to support salaries in the council office, etc., typically the beggar is a paid district executive who is begging for money so his own salary will not be cut along with his job). So we shall see.
      Thanks for the comment.
      Jay

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  7. In about 20 years, the people who are using Biblical justifications to discriminate against gays are going to look exactly like the people who in the 1950s used Biblical justifications to discriminate against blacks.

    If they persist in this policy they'll be more out of step with the country every year and every year they'll seem uglier. It's clear which way the tide is moving.

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    1. I think you are exactly correct. They become more and more out of touch as time goes by. This "change" in policy is merely window dressing, an attempt to stem the flow of money OUTWARDS instead of inwards. Now they can tell the deserters that THEY don't disciminate, only some of their chartered organizations do! HAHAHAHAHAHA
      Jay

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  8. Fuck you all...yes it was wrong, and yes it should have been changed. Nothing gets done overnight. It all comes one step at a time. This is a big step for them, and needs to happen. And, yes, I know they delayed the vote...I am sure some old homophobes are still trying to hold it back while those of us who know better are trying to push it forward. What they need is our support...do it, and do it now.

    Most everything you said has at least a grain of truth. But, you can't change things overnight...no matter how much you bitch. This is the closest they have come to doing anything right about this issue...can't you just support that?

    I support the scouts because I am a Scout leader...retired...I am a closeted gay, and I will guarantee you that there are others just like me. I personally know of other leaders, most who are not gay, who wholeheartedly support this effort. They will be there when needed.

    I have seen great things done in the name of that organization, help for kids who have no one to look up to as a role model...kids who would never be able to do the things they do...kids who sometimes still get lost, but have at least a chance at a normal life.

    As for the religious support, sure it is gonna be tough. But many of those groups are going to change too...given time.

    As for a belief in GOD...they do require that you believe in a supreme being. The interpretation of what that is, is left to each individual. Are there Troops/Packs/Posts [not dens, you idiot, that's a division within a PAck for elementary kids] who abuse that....I'm sure there are, so the solution is, go to another troop/Pack/Post that you like and agree with.

    So, if you want to make a big deal of this...fine...but I seriously disagree...support this effort through everything you have...but don't fucking criticize them for trying to finally fix it.

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  9. Sorry for the rant, but realize that it is easier to tear down, criticize, and destroy. We need to have a positive attitude, support the right efforts, and help build...not tear down.

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    1. Wow, Nate. While you don't need to apologize, I accept that we all have different opinions, but you obviously haven't read all my other posts on this subject.

      I do take exception that you called me an "idiot". I might have made a small error in how units are classified. But to call me an "idiot" is stupid, so you can get f'ed for that remark.

      Otherwise, go read all my other posts on this subject, then come back with something that matters. I'll let you find them amongst all the other posts...all my totally awesome escapades with the scouts, all the cool stuff we've done, all the boys I've supported over 30+ years as a scout leader only to be booted out on "suspicion". Almost everything you spew in this comment has been covered...and no one except a few commenters have said anything about a belief in God. Clearly you didn't do your homework.

      I apologize in advance for calling you "stupid" for not having read every other post I've made about the Boy Scouts before you posted this, especially as a first time commenter.

      I supported every boy who joined the units I was associated with - at least two have now come out as gay - both are Eagle Scouts. I get THAT right, unlike most news media who calls them "former" Eagle Scouts. Once an Eagle, always an Eagle.

      I've reported molesters within our ranks. I've recruited people who continue to contribute to the betterment of scouting even if I can't. I KNOW scouting. At the unit, district, council, section, region and national level and have worked in all those levels.

      But until they REALLY FIX IT, by saying "sexual orientation is not a barrier in any way to joining or participating with the Boy Scouts of America" they are just going after the money and shifting the issue to the units, which in my opinion, is a total cop out.

      Thank you for commenting, I appreciate it. But to castigate me and my followers without having read everything there is on this blog about scouting is disingenuous. Please read all the posts before you go off. And don't call me (or one of my commenters who might not be a scouter) an idiot over a simple mistake.
      Jay

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    2. Nate Oman:
      I see you are local...
      Interesting...
      Jay

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    3. From Biki
      "The vast majority of the dens will still discriminate against GLBT."
      My point is that this contributor obviously knows nothing about the BSA. To make this statement shows he doesn't have anything to base that statement on and is only making an assumption that this will happen.

      I will admit that I was really pissed off when I wrote this, and didn't follow my usual routine of cooling off before actually posting. My point was meant to be that change does not happen overnight...small steps...and they are at least trying to take those small steps...they need encouragement and support. Or suggest an alternative to fix it another way.

      Yes, I'm local, but my Scouting is not local. And for the record, I am a Scoutmaster, Order of the Arrow, and Wood Badge trained.

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    4. Biki is right. Since something like 70% of charters are held by Catholic, Mormon, and other conservative churches, nothing will change for the majority of units.

      The alternative you suggest is not for National to shift the scorn from discriminating aganst the LGBT community from themselves, thus attempting to stem the hemmoraghing of money, to the units and make fight the battles, but to do away with the discrimination completely. There is no need for it as the right wingnut pundits are so artfully pointing out in their rants, calling gays pedophiles, child moledters, etc. since most normal Americans recognize that this is not the case.

      And for the record, I was a scoutmaster, Vigil Honor OA, District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, National Camp School trainer, OA Shows staff, Jamboree staff, the list goes on. I'm not questioning your credentials, just the basis for calling people stupid and uninformed when clearly that is not the case.

      This is an issue that needs to be put to bed once and for all, not tiptoed around. And now the Board has put it off until May! Do they think everyone will forget about it and they'll disappear from the news? Or were they not following the BSA motto? Just stop discriminating. And the assholes who say "I'll shut down my troop if they do this", well, that just proves you don't care about the boys. The BSA could be a true leader in the fight against bullying, in acceptance of all people. But they just want the money. It's really sad.
      Jay

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    5. The last two sentences says it ALL for me, Jay.

      "It's all about the money".

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